HavenFans.co.uk - The Unofficial Whitehaven RLFC Forum

Civic hall, beacon and tourist information centre all to close.

Offline paulrl66

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Well said Puppetmaster


Offline cran.cran

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Dear Puppetmaster, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that one and said as much in my post above yours BUT one point here, the fact the electorate voted them in IN NO WAY absolves them of the sheer inept, unnimaginative, sterotypical way the run the borough and react to situations. Their sycophantic begging bowl that they put out Oliver Twist fashion to sellafield everytime there is a problem makes me ashamed of them, the way they treat the three smaller towns is a disgrace and also the attitude of some of those councillors who can be sneeringly anti Whitehaven all goes to show they are a useless bunch. Please let one Councillor come on here and say publicly JUST ONE ORIGINAL idea they have come up with themselves and got through Council that has benefited the people of Copeland - come one IDEA from is it 52 of you - that should not be too hard.


Offline harbouragrudge

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Hi Cran cran, to answer your points in turn:

* Yes, I am sure that the council are a major shareholder in the company of NCL (I'm pretty sure they helped to set it up!). But NCL must get money from elsewhere, and so I'd think it is a case of CBC no longer putting any more money in and the Civic Hall and Sports Centre sinking or swimming (we all know the answer to this one, I think).

* I wasn't overly criticising the performance of the professional executives - it was more the modern-day blight of the ridiculous level of pay. An extra 6k for the council leader (let's be mature here) DOES pale into comparrision. It was also a genuine statement as to whether these executives can still go on being paid this amount of money with much less responsibility.

* Itotally share your anger over ALL the "share-holders" and their refusal to take responsibility over the stadium.

* I am Whitehaven born and bred and and further to this realise that Whitehaven is the main town of Copeland and needs to be up to the task - I just think you need to be fair to the people of Millom, Egremont  - and CLEATOR MOOR (and Frizington.....)

* Funny you should talk about mayors.....

Finally I did see a very good comment on the Whitehaven News website where the poster asked whether this was politically motivated and the cuts would be reversed if tied into the acceptance of the nuclear under-ground repository. I really wouldn't be overly surprised... 
Freud said that the essence of the comic was the conservation of psychic energy. But then Freud never played Second House, Friday night at the Glasgow Empire - Ken Dodd


Offline cran.cran

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Dear HAG, I think we are at crossed purposes over the issue of prof' executives, by that I mean the officers who work at the council secretaries, solicitors and the like, they are not well paid by any industry standard, [one could of course argue that that is the reason they end up here at Whitehaven] I think you mean the elected politicians who are IN THE executive politbureau, inner circle, cabinet, ladies circle call it what you will. Yes I could not agree more, they could all [I would say] forego ALL there allowances and expenses for a couple of years and do the job voluntarily but we know that that will not happen. Like all politicians, now they have no responsibility for the housing stock and loads of other matters they have to create a niche for themselves so it is done at the expense of the Nuclear industry who they cosy up to and invent committees for things that really should be [and in the end usually are] done as a matter of course. I have said above quite clearly that they have treated the other towns even more lamentably than Whitehaven for the last thirty five years these towns are all shaddows of their former selves. I am not sure what you mean by "funny you should talk about Mayors" perhaps you could be a bit more explicit in what you mean. If everyone actually reads the pages in the W.N. some of the comments are simply patetic, derisable and they are all at sea. What is worse The Tories are in with them its a joint desicion and they can't come up with a plan B. The situation on the political front is hopeless.


Offline random2

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A couple of thoughts:

The last time I saw anything about Ms Woodburn's salary, I'm pretty sure it was about £24k? Now that is the sort of salary the dairy department manager in Tesco or Morrisons will be on. So, rather than being overpaid the argument would be that she is under qualified to do a job that should be paid nearer to £100k for the size of the budgets and the responsibility involved.

I'm not sure if she is just the figure head and there are qualified people doing the actual running of the council? Not sure how the set up works?

We need visibility of the accounts to make a decision on how the money is spent.

Also, my understanding was that the council don't set business rates, that is set by the government? - correct me if I'm wrong?


Offline cran.cran

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Dear random 2, two points as far as I am aware she doesn't get a salary as such it seems to be a series of allowances and I think it's much more in total than 24K but you must remember we hav a guy who is very well paid to run the borough the chief executive, she is simply a politico who has along with her party engineered the post that she is in at the moment to become a full "paid" post, a town like Whitehaven has no need for a chief executive to run the town and a political chief executive to run the chief executive and make noises of. It's duplication of jobs a cushy number and a total SINECURE, perhaps Ms.Woodburn might like to tell the press her total earnings, allowances, special fees, committee top ups etc etc I would mind the difference over and above £24k in my pocket.


Offline Maca

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im from the moor and ive never heard anyone moan about whitehaven getting money etc so dont know where thats came fra !!! both towns are full of takeaways /hair dressers etc and in the same boat , i and others have always wanted the best for whitehaven and said cbc to get its finger out and save whitehavens town.
think a few on heer also forget alot of Havens supporters are from the moor and the mont.


Offline Barramarra

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Anyone old enough to remember the last time we had a Tory government ( as thats what is) should know what to expect.
the only way is up.


Offline cran.cran

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of course the reverse of that argument Barramarra is that every post war Labour Government, HAS been a tax and spend Government from Atlee thorough to Blair, the only difference with the last Labour government was they were a spend and NOT tax administration, they spent widely on a lot of spurious programmes and used cheap money instead of paying for these programmes through taxation whereby the populace knew the cost, we are in fact paying the bill for years of profligacy, and before you say I am a rabid Tory I have voted Labour all my life, but the last Labour administration was more upper middle class than ever and so FAR away from the working man than it is hard to imagine.


Offline harbouragrudge

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Once again Cran Cran, we are completely in agreement!

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an economist, but I've taken a keen interest in such things since it all went belly up in 2008. The received wisdom is that governments spend their way out of recessions (like Labour wanted to do this time but the Tories prefer 'austerity') and fill up the coffers in the good times.

Back in the latest 'good times' of the early-to-mid Noughties, Labour for all the best intenetions chose to put record investment in schools and the NHS in particular, and even chose to borrow further money with PFI, etc. They should have increased taxation rather than being tempted into borrowing, but you run the risk of then being politically unelectable.

Taxation has always been a way of helping regulate the economy but since Thatcher pretty much 'won the arguement' on these things in the Eighties, the ideology is to keep taxes near or below the European average so that Britain remains 'competitive' (I say let the greedy bankers, etc. shove off to Switzerland). And now schools and hospitals will be going back to the pre-investment standards and so all that money has been doubly-wasted!

Freud said that the essence of the comic was the conservation of psychic energy. But then Freud never played Second House, Friday night at the Glasgow Empire - Ken Dodd


Offline cran.cran

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What is doubly annoying with our great council is that during the Blair/Brown years there was a vast pool of money sloshing around and councils all up and down the country got vast lumps of money for just about any investment programme they could come up with, what did the people of Copeland get from the good years? Ah yes they went in with private enterprise to get the most expensive council chambers imaginable in the most luicrous spending programme ever invented by man the P.F.I. and saddled us with yet another expensive white elephant, the same white elephant that they now want to sub let [shifting the council employees to a big shed at Moresby another white elephant] and sub let to whom, it wouldn't be Sellafied would it? ? ? Sickening unimaginative bunch of not even second rate politicians.


Offline cran.cran

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Once again Cran Cran, we are completely in agreement!

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an economist, but I've taken a keen interest in such things since it all went belly up in 2008. The received wisdom is that governments spend their way out of recessions (like Labour wanted to do this time but the Tories prefer 'austerity') and fill up the coffers in the good times.

Back in the latest 'good times' of the early-to-mid Noughties, Labour for all the best intenetions chose to put record investment in schools and the NHS in particular, and even chose to borrow further money with PFI, etc. They should have increased taxation rather than being tempted into borrowing, but you run the risk of then being politically unelectable.

Taxation has always been a way of helping regulate the economy but since Thatcher pretty much 'won the arguement' on these things in the Eighties, the ideology is to keep taxes near or below the European average so that Britain remains 'competitive' (I say let the greedy bankers, etc. shove off to Switzerland). And now schools and hospitals will be going back to the pre-investment standards and so all that money has been doubly-wasted!
trouble is you can't [though Labour would have us believe you can] spend your way out of recession when you borrowed to pay for the boom, it just does not work like that, it's like the treasury secretary ? who left a note [jokingly] to his successor when the coalition took over saying just "There's nothing left" and that is the fact of our current economic situation. Like every householder we all know when we have spent too much and can borrow no more becuase we either can't pay it back or we will go bankrupt.


Offline Keith

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I am a great believer that there should be no politics in local government.    It should be the best people in their particular field in their area working together for the betterment of the whole population.    What we have is a political football that gets kicked about because of the party colour that people represent.    Tories introduce something when they are "in power" (how I hate those words) and then Labour do away with it and introduce their own "something" when they are "in power" and so it goes, on and on.    People in this country are sick to death of PARTY politics and the first lot to realise this and do something different will probably win more votes at the next General Election.    Until then we will continue to find fault in each others policies even if they are pretty decent policies, because that is the way we do it!!!!!!!
Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


Offline cran.cran

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Dear Keith, I agree with you about local government, that's why in a post above I have advocated an elected mayor [with no party supporting any candidate, officially, unofficially or financially] so someone with an actual raft of proposals can stand up and put them forward instead of being locked in the party system. Anyone who wants to do/be anything in local politics only has to join the right party, attend meetings, get a safe ward, keep their head down, vote as they are told and eventually they get a seat on the LADIES CABINET and of course a turn at Mayor thrown in -NOTHING TO DO WITH ABILITY OR ORIGINALITY.


Offline harbouragrudge

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Keith, Cran cran, to support both your points I give you the example of Stuart Drummond (H'Angus the Monkey) at Hartlepool. He is doing a better executive job than a member of the main political parties could provide, according to the local electorate.

As I have said previously at the height of the stadium fiasco, despite being a member of the Labour Party, I'll not be voting Labour at a local at a local level until things seriously change.
Freud said that the essence of the comic was the conservation of psychic energy. But then Freud never played Second House, Friday night at the Glasgow Empire - Ken Dodd