League table

[spacecake]

Bonus points have been in since the 2007 season summit we've gotta live never liked them hopefully next season it'll go back to how it was can't see super league teams wanting them

[brett kinghams mullet]

Jampies4me quoting ours and their visits to Leigh as a reason how bonus points work and are a good thing.
let's compare we go there 2nd game of the season when 500k is up for grabs and they need to win it given the outlay on their squad ,we had 1 DR player and 1loan
they go there next to last game of season when Leigh are safe in first place and rest players and give debuts to other players.They have 4 DR and one loan.
All that does is strength the argument against it,as depending on fixture schedule some games like towns last 2 games,luckily have been dead rubber games.
and they say we just don't grasp it.....we do and it wrong

[puppetmaster]

What a wonderful thing hindsight is!!!   If Town had won more games than Haven we wouldn't be having this discussion as it is, yes, Haven won 13 games and Town won 12 and drew 1, so both were undefeated in 13 games.  You could also say that we shouldn't have got 2 points for the draw with Halifax as under the old system of scoring we should only have had 1 point.

So Haven got 39 points under the old scoring system and Town got 38 and IF we had been playing under those rules then yes, Haven would have been higher than Town.   However, we can't change the rules to suit some clubs halfway through the season so we all play under the rules that every club accepts at the start of the season.    Those rules allow clubs to gain 1 point if they don't lose by more than 12 points.   Now Haven and Town both lost 13 games and so they both had the same chance to pick up those points.   Town just happened to do it a bit more regular than Haven.

Who is to say that if we had been playing under the old system from the start of the season that Town wouldn't have picked up more wins or Haven more losses?   Hindsight, eh!!!!!!

Keith, sorry to disappoint you, but my argument against the Bonus Point rubbish has nothing to do with Town finishing above Haven this season with fewer wins.

I always go back to the season where Toulouse WON TWELVE

[puppetmaster]

What a wonderful thing hindsight is!!!   If Town had won more games than Haven we wouldn't be having this discussion as it is, yes, Haven won 13 games and Town won 12 and drew 1, so both were undefeated in 13 games.  You could also say that we shouldn't have got 2 points for the draw with Halifax as under the old system of scoring we should only have had 1 point.

So Haven got 39 points under the old scoring system and Town got 38 and IF we had been playing under those rules then yes, Haven would have been higher than Town.   However, we can't change the rules to suit some clubs halfway through the season so we all play under the rules that every club accepts at the start of the season.    Those rules allow clubs to gain 1 point if they don't lose by more than 12 points.   Now Haven and Town both lost 13 games and so they both had the same chance to pick up those points.   Town just happened to do it a bit more regular than Haven.

Who is to say that if we had been playing under the old system from the start of the season that Town wouldn't have picked up more wins or Haven more losses?   Hindsight, eh!!!!!!

Keith, sorry to disappoint you, but my argument against the Bonus Point has nothing to do with Town finishing above Haven having won fewer games.

I always go back to the 18 game season where Toulouse won TWELVE games and lost SIX, and Sheffield won NINE and lost NINE, but because Sheffield lost all nine by 12 points or less they "EARNED" (HAHAHAHA) NINE BONUS POINTS, which meant they finished with 36pts, the same as Toulouse, but were above them in the league!!

THIS IS WRONG!!!
And no matter how anyone wants to try to wrap it up rewarding teams for losing is a detriment to the game.
 

[Keith]

Hey Big Fella, I think most people who know me on these forums know that I don't agree with rewarding losers, even BKM will agree with me on that.    What I have always said is that we the fans  had very little say in how the rules were drawn up on this subject and this particular rule was brought in against a lot of contrary opinions, including mine if anyone wants to go back far enough to check.

The RFL get stick for bringing in these rules but who are the RFL?    They are all of the member clubs so there must be a majority of our clubs that voted for this particular rule and the only way to get rid of it is by all those clubs voting it out again.   Until then, as I have said previously, clubs should make the best use of the rule as it exists today.

[beermatt42]

I don't think the RFL are the sum of it's member clubs, they are simply a small clique from Leeds who like to dictate silly and over complicated rules to everyone else.

Only this week I filled in a questionnaire about their services and since I am bound by their self imposed confidentiality I cannot say exactly how I replied.

Suffice to say, I had a lot to say and they know where they stand 

[brett kinghams mullet]

it appears our bonus point debate is way off the mark and we are deluded as a team with less wins and more bonus points is more competitive during the season
so who is right
breakdown the stats and they paint a very interesting picture

Haven
Home  9 wins
            5 wins against teams that finished in the top 9 of which  3 wins against teams that finished above town
Away   4 wins
            2 against teams in the top 9 of which 1 win was against a team who finished above town

13 wins in total , yes we took a few hammerings during the season but we also dished a few out as well .You could say we failed to beat any of the top 3 and got few BP off them, but we did beat everyones else in the middle group at home and some away from home, and at no time did we have the luxury of playing dead rubber games against teams with nothing to play for, or play against weakened teams

Town
Home 7 wins 1 draw
           3 wins against teams in the top 9 of which 2 were against teams that finished above town and 1 draw
away 5 wins
all 5 were against teams that were relegated and they failed to beat any of the top 9 away and failed to beat an team who finished above them away from home

Yes their defence was very good but attack wise were poor  and only barrow scored less points
When  you consider, they beat a very under strength fev team (team sheets don't Lie)
Got a point away at fax after fax  had a mid week game v Leigh (A)
and their last two games were against teams who had nothing to play for and both rested players (dews had 8 changes) and leigh rested some and gave 2 players debuts also

Then is their really that much difference between the 2 teams, yes they finished above again down to the stupid bonus points, but to listen to them you would think they were light years ahead of us....far from it .

[HavenWarrior]

it appears our bonus point debate is way off the mark and we are deluded as a team with less wins and more bonus points is more competitive during the season
so who is right
breakdown the stats and they paint a very interesting picture

Haven
Home  9 wins
            5 wins against teams that finished in the top 9 of which  3 wins against teams that finished above town
Away   4 wins
            2 against teams in the top 9 of which 1 win was against a team who finished above town

13 wins in total , yes we took a few hammerings during the season but we also dished a few out as well .You could say we failed to beat any of the top 3 and got few BP off them, but we did beat everyones else in the middle group at home and some away from home, and at no time did we have the luxury of playing dead rubber games against teams with nothing to play for, or play against weakened teams

Town
Home 7 wins 1 draw
           3 wins against teams in the top 9 of which 2 were against teams that finished above town and 1 draw
away 5 wins
all 5 were against teams that were relegated and they failed to beat any of the top 9 away and failed to beat an team who finished above them away from home

Yes their defence was very good but attack wise were poor  and only barrow scored less points
When  you consider, they beat a very under strength fev team (team sheets don't Lie)
Got a point away at fax after fax  had a mid week game v Leigh (A)
and their last two games were against teams who had nothing to play for and both rested players (dews had 8 changes) and leigh rested some and gave 2 players debuts also

Then is their really that much difference between the 2 teams, yes they finished above again down to the stupid bonus points, but to listen to them you would think they were light years ahead of us....far from it .

Bottom line is, Town finished above us in the league!!!!

If Charlo had gone at end if last season, and Vievers had been in charge all year, they would have finished higher, he without doubt turned their season around, and as a team they have improved a lot more than we have this season.

HW

[rockerlad]

it appears our bonus point debate is way off the mark and we are deluded as a team with less wins and more bonus points is more competitive during the season
so who is right
breakdown the stats and they paint a very interesting picture

Haven
Home  9 wins
            5 wins against teams that finished in the top 9 of which  3 wins against teams that finished above town
Away   4 wins
            2 against teams in the top 9 of which 1 win was against a team who finished above town

13 wins in total , yes we took a few hammerings during the season but we also dished a few out as well .You could say we failed to beat any of the top 3 and got few BP off them, but we did beat everyones else in the middle group at home and some away from home, and at no time did we have the luxury of playing dead rubber games against teams with nothing to play for, or play against weakened teams

Town
Home 7 wins 1 draw
           3 wins against teams in the top 9 of which 2 were against teams that finished above town and 1 draw
away 5 wins
all 5 were against teams that were relegated and they failed to beat any of the top 9 away and failed to beat an team who finished above them away from home

Yes their defence was very good but attack wise were poor  and only barrow scored less points
When  you consider, they beat a very under strength fev team (team sheets don't Lie)
Got a point away at fax after fax  had a mid week game v Leigh (A)
and their last two games were against teams who had nothing to play for and both rested players (dews had 8 changes) and leigh rested some and gave 2 players debuts also

Then is their really that much difference between the 2 teams, yes they finished above again down to the stupid bonus points, but to listen to them you would think they were light years ahead of us....far from it .

This is becoming some sort of obsession with you. Just let it go ha ha

[brett kinghams mullet]

no one said they havent improved, just showing that the end of season stats show there is very little between the two teams in terms of over the full seasons performance, the statement about if vievers had been in charge is opinion , no one knows how it would be.

[Keith]

Alan, all you needed to say was Haven got 39 points from 13 wins whilst Town got 38 points from 12 wins and 1 draw and Town got 10 points from 13 defeats where Haven got 6 points from 13 defeats.  Of course there was nothing between the two teams as shown by their proximity in the final league table.   Everything else is just he says/she says.

[brett kinghams mullet]

Alan, all you needed to say was Haven got 39 points from 13 wins whilst Town got 38 points from 12 wins and 1 draw and Town got 10 points from 13 defeats where Haven got 6 points from 13 defeats.  Of course there was nothing between the two teams as shown by their proximity in the final league table.   Everything else is just he says/she says.

where those wins/ defeats come from keith also are a good indication of how teams have moved forward.I think if either team is to do anything in the next few years away for is where it needs to improve.