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justonelilpoint

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Reply #45 on: 15 Aug 2007, 11:58:05 pm
I have followed Town for 59 years through thick and loads of thin.    I cry out for a SL for the future generations not necessarily myself, and I can assure you that if was going to jump ship I would have done it years ago and saved myself a lot of money and heartaches.

You've misinterpreted me Keith , what i meant is the regulars who go know no matter what standard is being served up,would still be there if a Cumbrian S/L club was in National Leagues.Im talking about the  people who want a S/L club now who dont go,These thousands at Town and Haven ,But only turn out when there is a big match on...you know the ones, we've got about  2500 of them who came for Warrington game and not been back.
Its these same people who would find something better to do than turn out to watch a S/L side be thrashed if they were struggling.Fickle springs to mind!
Should i give up my club for some part time supporter who'll attend a game when it suits them ?

And P.S yes id guess majority of town and haven players wouldnt mind playing for a Cumbrian side, afterall their wages would go through roof...but tell me which players from Town and Haven would grace this new club at the moment ???


Offline Full80mins

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Reply #46 on: 16 Aug 2007, 12:10:59 am
I, for one, would much rather watch a competitive team in NL1 than a team getting thrashed in SL.
How many of the fans that watch Haven or Town walk to games? How would these fans get to a new ground?

Justonelilpoint is perfectly correct in saying what would happen after 3 years?
How many players round here would be able to compete in SL? In all honesty, not many.
We would have a team of strugglers and they fans would disappear, leaving us with a club with no history with no fans, with many wanting Haven and Town back again.
I would wager that there would be more people wanting to watch a competitive game than a stroll for the big boys.
Yes, we do get bigger crowds when a SL team is in town, but if it was every week and we were getting a stuffing, would everyone keep coming?

If there was a Cumbria SL team and Haven and Town still playing, I for one would much rather watch Haven than the Cumbria team.
If i wanted to watch SL, I would have gone when Town were there, but instead i watched Haven each week - even when they were getting stuffed away from home in the days of the Pelican Garage syndrome.


Offline JamEater

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Reply #47 on: 16 Aug 2007, 10:16:45 am
I too have been there through thick and thin. Whats wrong with wanting better? What is the point of being the best part time team in NL1 or the best team in NL1 if you never ever will move out of NL1? We have had our chance and blown it!  The only question I ask and still not had answered is. How do we move on. I will also say with out being full time we have no chance & for all these people who think that the players with good jobs want to go into SL think again. They would have to make a choice, Full time job? Full time player? Lets say it was you and you had a family to support, what would you choose? a few years in rugby at best or a good job well paid job for life.
At the moment there on a half decent wage, lets say ?350 a week, and lets say they are on ?300 a win. Where is there incentive to try SL, So if they go up, they have to choose one or the other, Next if they did go up they know most of them would be dropped. So its catch 22 for them, We win the grand final, we loose,  We get dropped & replaced, we loose wages. So most of them know there on a cushy little number staying in NL1. Until this club go full time they are going no where.


Offline recre

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Reply #48 on: 16 Aug 2007, 10:39:23 am
The only question I ask and still not had answered is. How do we move on.

Dont you think thats the $64,000 question. Nobody on this forum is going to be able to answer that. Its easy to come up with questions and a hell of a lot more difficult to come up with answers that dont look like pie in the sky. We all know that we can't compete financially with the clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire and thats why a lot of people are happy at the position we are in. You obviously want us to move forward, I would think most people on here do, but we've also got to tread carefully and not go down the road of boom and bust. I cant see any way to get over the financial hurdle (unless that lass from Glasgow who won ?35M is a secret Haven fan) and all I can do is back the BOD who've given us a sound financial base on which to build if the chance comes along, and hope that something is going on in the background that we dont know about that may get us on to the next level. Constant criticism and bickering doesn't help anyone. Do you have any answers? If so I would think you'd be welcome with open arms if they are viable.


Offline Maca

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Reply #49 on: 16 Aug 2007, 11:32:52 am
What happens to the full time team that gets stuck in NL1 when the door is shut do they go back to partime and sell some of  there players.


Offline JamEater

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Reply #50 on: 16 Aug 2007, 11:57:49 am
The only question I ask and still not had answered is. How do we move on.

Dont you think thats the $64,000 question. Nobody on this forum is going to be able to answer that. Its easy to come up with questions and a hell of a lot more difficult to come up with answers that dont look like pie in the sky. We all know that we can't compete financially with the clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire and thats why a lot of people are happy at the position we are in. You obviously want us to move forward, I would think most people on here do, but we've also got to tread carefully and not go down the road of boom and bust. I cant see any way to get over the financial hurdle (unless that lass from Glasgow who won ?35M is a secret Haven fan) and all I can do is back the BOD who've given us a sound financial base on which to build if the chance comes along, and hope that something is going on in the background that we dont know about that may get us on to the next level. Constant criticism and bickering doesn't help anyone. Do you have any answers? If so I would think you'd be welcome with open arms if they are viable.

Yes I have the first answer. Go bloody full time. and if we can not compete financially, why the hell we spending money on redeveloping the ground. put the money into building a bloody team first. It's like building a swimming pool in the desert, nice idea, but no good with no water to put in it?


Offline Maca

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Reply #51 on: 16 Aug 2007, 12:09:14 pm
Think we need to do both before the doors shut, we,l need the team and the ground.When do the stands get built end of season?


Offline recre

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Reply #52 on: 16 Aug 2007, 12:48:06 pm
The only question I ask and still not had answered is. How do we move on.

Dont you think thats the $64,000 question. Nobody on this forum is going to be able to answer that. Its easy to come up with questions and a hell of a lot more difficult to come up with answers that dont look like pie in the sky. We all know that we can't compete financially with the clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire and thats why a lot of people are happy at the position we are in. You obviously want us to move forward, I would think most people on here do, but we've also got to tread carefully and not go down the road of boom and bust. I cant see any way to get over the financial hurdle (unless that lass from Glasgow who won ?35M is a secret Haven fan) and all I can do is back the BOD who've given us a sound financial base on which to build if the chance comes along, and hope that something is going on in the background that we dont know about that may get us on to the next level. Constant criticism and bickering doesn't help anyone. Do you have any answers? If so I would think you'd be welcome with open arms if they are viable.

Yes I have the first answer. Go bloody full time. and if we can not compete financially, why the hell we spending money on redeveloping the ground. put the money into building a bloody team first. It's like building a swimming pool in the desert, nice idea, but no good with no water to put in it?


Like I said earlier, try not to give out answers that look like pie in the sky, how do you propose to financially back this full time team? Its easy enough saying lets go full time but its not so easy to back this with hard cash. There isn't that much available in this area so where would you plan to get the money from to back your idea? The often put out scenario is that big firms will come up with the money to back us but I'm sure that this has already been looked into on numerous occasions and failed to materialise, so thats out. Sponsorship will go so far as will a big money backer but both those types are difficult to find in this area.


Offline JamEater

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Reply #53 on: 16 Aug 2007, 02:04:21 pm
The only question I ask and still not had answered is. How do we move on.

Dont you think thats the $64,000 question. Nobody on this forum is going to be able to answer that. Its easy to come up with questions and a hell of a lot more difficult to come up with answers that dont look like pie in the sky. We all know that we can't compete financially with the clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire and thats why a lot of people are happy at the position we are in. You obviously want us to move forward, I would think most people on here do, but we've also got to tread carefully and not go down the road of boom and bust. I cant see any way to get over the financial hurdle (unless that lass from Glasgow who won ?35M is a secret Haven fan) and all I can do is back the BOD who've given us a sound financial base on which to build if the chance comes along, and hope that something is going on in the background that we dont know about that may get us on to the next level. Constant criticism and bickering doesn't help anyone. Do you have any answers? If so I would think you'd be welcome with open arms if they are viable.

Yes I have the first answer. Go bloody full time. and if we can not compete financially, why the hell we spending money on redeveloping the ground. put the money into building a bloody team first. It's like building a swimming pool in the desert, nice idea, but no good with no water to put in it?


Like I said earlier, try not to give out answers that look like pie in the sky, how do you propose to financially back this full time team? Its easy enough saying lets go full time but its not so easy to back this with hard cash. There isn't that much available in this area so where would you plan to get the money from to back your idea? The often put out scenario is that big firms will come up with the money to back us but I'm sure that this has already been looked into on numerous occasions and failed to materialise, so thats out. Sponsorship will go so far as will a big money backer but both those types are difficult to find in this area.

At least I am trying marra. No one else as any ideas. Just leave things the way they are and things might fix them selves eh? So we sit, do nowt, end up like Workington. yeah that be about right! You guys follow Haven into oblivion then. Me I will just say nowt like the rest of the sheep. No matter what your intentions are on this site the grass is always greener in our own field. Haven can do no wrong according to most of you & your happy just hanging on to the shirt tails for the ride. As for pie in the sky marra, what do you call Haven ever getting into SL,or even stopping in NL1 ?


Offline recre

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Reply #54 on: 16 Aug 2007, 02:16:30 pm
At least I am trying marra. No one else as any ideas. Just leave things the way they are and things might fix them selves eh? So we sit, do nowt, end up like Workington. yeah that be about right! You guys follow Haven into oblivion then. Me I will just say nowt like the rest of the sheep. No matter what your intentions are on this site the grass is always greener in our own field. Haven can do no wrong according to most of you & your happy just hanging on to the shirt tails for the ride. As for pie in the sky marra, what do you call Haven ever getting into SL,or even stopping in NL1 ?
How have you tried? All you've done is come out with a statement that we should go full time with absolutely no idea on how to sustain it. The difficult thing is backing up such statements. I'm under no illusion about the difficulty facing the club and ones just like us in the current climate and think that you have to expand or die (which is going to happen to a lot of clubs when the franchise system comes into force). I'm also like you and have no idea on how to survive when it happens (and I know its going to happen), I'm not a businessman and no real feel for how business works, but I do know that if there's no sound backing in place you may as well go and throw your money in the dock as follow down the boom and bust road. Nothing has been made official from the club about when and if they are aiming for a franchise in 2009 or the one after 2012 (which is what a lot of clubs in NL1 & NL2 are setting they're stalls out for). We are currently debt free if what we are told is correct and that is better than a lot of clubs. Let the people who've got us into this position decide what they feel best, let them go for whatever they want (there's usually a time when you can put things to board members if you disagree with anything they do) and lets see if its attainable before condemning them. Rome wasn't built in a day.


justonelilpoint

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Reply #55 on: 16 Aug 2007, 03:31:48 pm
Well said Recre !
As long as Whitehaven continue to improve on and off the field im happy.
The Stadium isnt just a white elephant for S/L dreams.Its a facility for the fans,We been crying out for a roof for long enough and we in desperate need of a new club before the old one falls down !
Hopefully If and when the Pow beck scheme comes off we'll have a stadium that will last couple decades at least and have facilities for conferences and perhaps a club that can host weddings and christenings.
Whitehaven R.L isnt all about Super league its about a club in the heart of the community and it bring much pleasure to thousands every week.
Ive just returned from collecting my 10 year old from Summer camp at ground, 4 days at 5 hrs a day, Bamber and Alan davidson have taken about 60 kids.They've had a wonderfull time and just recieved medals etc of Dave Rotheram.They not whining like some folk about not getting in S/L etc  they just love the sport.
To me theres nothing better than watching a close game and that feeling when hooter goes with excitement when we've just beaten say Widnes or Cas.I dont need  big name players down here every week to still enjoy R.L and enjoy all the social side that goes with it,Meeting friends and having a drink.
If i want see St.Helens and see the stars i'll go down road and watch them,Only 2 and half hrs in car.
And i have done, as well as Anfield and Old trafford !
But Whitehaven will always be my side its  why ive watched the club now for over 30 od years and will continue to do so, No matter what league they in.



Offline Keith

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Reply #56 on: 16 Aug 2007, 03:47:05 pm
Once again this subject has got people talking sensibly without any bitterness and although we all want different things at the end of the day we all really want the same ........... a team with a future to follow.

I cannot understand why people when they talk about a new club think for one moment that it's team will contain the majority of the players at either Town or Haven now!!!     A new club would need to negotiate a deal on the lines of the Catalans where they were given 3 years of unlimited quota players, etc.     Why does everyone assume that a new team in SL would be getting thrashed every week???     Yes, if either Haven or Town ever managed to get to SL, then they would get thrashed every week and I would go as far as to say and go bankrupt as well.

This area is too small to provide the major finance that would be required to support a one town team.   With a county team we have the whole of the county (except Furness area) to draw on and even over the Scottish border if the club was marketed right.     None of us on here have either the acumen, the financial clout or the contacts in industry etc to make this happen and that is why we are reliant on others sharing that view who could pull it together.

At present our directors at both clubs have their hands full with trying to keep two NL clubs afloat, with one doing a bit better than the other, but for how long???  I honestly believe that at the end of next season when the drawbridge comes up on P & R we will all see a difference at both our clubs.    With no real prize to aim for people will drift away from the game and find other interests just as they have done in the past.   Town in SL averaged around 3,000 and are now down to 700.  Those people are still around but doing something completely different on match days.    Similarly with Haven averaging around 2000 - 2500, but in 3 years they also could be down to 700 or so.    Is this what we really want to see happening???

To answer a point I made earlier about the players would all vote for a new club, maybe I should have said the younger players would have done so.    Those players who are getting a bit old in the tooth with good jobs will never give that up to take the chance but both our clubs have some very good young players who, given the right circumstances  and coaching staff, would consider taking the chance to try to reach SL without having to move away from home.     At present a young lad gets to turn pro and he gets a good day job and he then is stuck between a rock and a hard place of having to move away to try his luck with no security.    

Obviously, it's not going to happen because it needs the will of both clubs, directors, fans, players, coaches, etc, to sit down and discuss it in a sensible manner not just presuming that they would go bust inside 3 years or get thrashed every week.    It needs a large input from the RFL,  SL and industrialists but they won't do anything until this area shows that it wants to have a go and therein lies the problem.    We all sit in our own little comfort zones happy to stay where we are with little or no hope of progress with an attitude of "so what if we drop down to 400 crowds again I'll still be there".     Meanwhile the RL world will have long since passed us by and given up on us.      
Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


Offline JamEater

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Reply #57 on: 16 Aug 2007, 03:48:10 pm
At least I am trying marra. No one else as any ideas. Just leave things the way they are and things might fix them selves eh? So we sit, do nowt, end up like Workington. yeah that be about right! You guys follow Haven into oblivion then. Me I will just say nowt like the rest of the sheep. No matter what your intentions are on this site the grass is always greener in our own field. Haven can do no wrong according to most of you & your happy just hanging on to the shirt tails for the ride. As for pie in the sky marra, what do you call Haven ever getting into SL,or even stopping in NL1 ?
How have you tried? All you've done is come out with a statement that we should go full time with absolutely no idea on how to sustain it. The difficult thing is backing up such statements. I'm under no illusion about the difficulty facing the club and ones just like us in the current climate and think that you have to expand or die (which is going to happen to a lot of clubs when the franchise system comes into force). I'm also like you and have no idea on how to survive when it happens (and I know its going to happen), I'm not a businessman and no real feel for how business works, but I do know that if there's no sound backing in place you may as well go and throw your money in the dock as follow down the boom and bust road. Nothing has been made official from the club about when and if they are aiming for a franchise in 2009 or the one after 2012 (which is what a lot of clubs in NL1 & NL2 are setting they're stalls out for). We are currently debt free if what we are told is correct and that is better than a lot of clubs. Let the people who've got us into this position decide what they feel best, let them go for whatever they want (there's usually a time when you can put things to board members if you disagree with anything they do) and lets see if its attainable before condemning them. Rome wasn't built in a day.
,

Nicely said, However! How have I tried you asked marra? I have paid entrance fee for 35 years every season, I pay into the club monthly by direct debit too, to help support them, Thats how I have tried. I go down every Sunday and shout Haven, Haven, thats how? Where does all that money from gate entrances go, We are never ever told or have had it broken down to us what happens with the gate money that goes through the club! Why is that?
I have the right to put my thoughts forward just as you have just done with your thoughts. What makes yours the right way and mine the wrong way? I just do not want to end up like Workington! I been there, done that, and don't want to do it again! As for Rome was not built in a day. The foundations were built a damn site quicker than 50 years its taken this club to achieve anything.and a damn site bloody quicker than building a new stand. Never mind have faith. I would rather have some full time players. So stuff redevelopment,  Like you said about Rome, At least they had something to put on show in their coliseum.
What are we supposed to do, just sit with our fingers up our backsides until some rich sponsor comes along. We are loosing attendance again now! So god only knows what it will be like next year.
« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2007, 03:52:03 pm by JamEater »


justonelilpoint

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Reply #58 on: 16 Aug 2007, 05:15:02 pm
[quote   Why does everyone assume that a new team in SL would be getting thrashed every week???    
[/quote]

Think we'd all expect a new side to initially go into S/L and make a fist of it in much same way as Catalan have.In fact Keith i'd probably even come along and watch some games i wouldnt make a protest and stay away.I support  Cumbrian sport
However its not so long ago Paris were in S/L with all the quota places etc and went out of buisness. Whose to say in 2012 Catalan wont be replaced by another franchise ?
Will Toulouse be a sucess if they get in ? or Celtic Crusaders ?
Does franchises stop there at 14 teams to new sides outside the heartlands ? Is the R.L saying thats it we've expanded enough ? or do new sides work their way up through the National leagues ? and if so ultimately will they replace exisiting teams like Salford and Wakefield ?
As you keep saying Keith everything goes in circles, and ultimately a Cumbrian side WILL be bottom of S/L and Struggling and perhaps even lose its franchise, Isnt one person come up with a what then senario ?
We could ultimately lose pro rugby in the West of the county for good.
At moment Widnes are getting 3-4000 crowds will their support dwindle in much same way as you forecast Town and Havens with nothing to aim for  if they didnt go up ? Not everyone can go into S/L ,cant keep expanding to 16, 18 20 teams and its another million dollar question whether RFL will just stand by and watch teams slowly die and who knows we may even see a legal challenge from one of the big clubs.
Your saying Towns crowds are down to 700 now, But believe me 1 sucessfull season and promotion to Div 1 would see them return ,like you say everything in circles and those same fans who stay away now, would do exactly same with any new club!
Lots and lots of ifs and buts on both sides of the argument but until someone with a bit of brain and financial clout comes forward  with soem impressive plans,Us as fans will go round and round in circles debating this annually


Offline HavenMascot

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Reply #59 on: 16 Aug 2007, 06:56:26 pm
well said and one point like he said there if town got one promotion (which i hope they do) they will be more supporters which they can buy better classed players (no disrespect to the town players) and then look for a playoff posistion with more derby games which will bring more money into both clubs


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