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The situation as i see it...

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ANZAC

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on: 14 Sep 2007, 11:49:06 pm
First The Facts:-

(1) We have an aging team Lester , Seeds, Trindal , Fats, Joe, Hil,...are all the wrong side of 30.

(2) We have at best 6 or 7 decent young / mature player who will form the backbone of Whitehaven fo rthe next 5 -7 years.  Rudd,Calvert, Mattinson Sice, Calvert, S Mcavoy,M jackson, ..These blokes MUST step up and set the standard as Seeds , Lester and fats have done over the last five yearsRudd , mattinson and Mcavoy in particular MUST develop a professional and winning attitude.

(3) We are offically without a coach for next year... The BOD have made a huge , if not entirley unanimous decison.  THEY WILL BE JUDGED 100 % on FINDING A "BETTER COACH THAN THEY ELEDCTED NOT TO RETAIN...That means the next coach must finish either 1st 2nd or 3rd. in NL1 .  OTHERWSE the BOD have F***ed up!

(4) The Bod need to deliver they as things currently stand have NOT delivered any improvemnt tothe groun, Any improvement tohe team or any planning or succession tohthe development of the club.  THEY DO NOT OWN THE CLUB , THEY are ONLY "LUCKY" CUSTODIANS of it. NOT ONE OF THEM HAS ANY MORE KNOWLEDGE < RIGHT OR WEALTH THAN YOU OR I.... and should be judged in this light....at the moment they are not worthy of the title board of directors>         


ANZAC

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Reply #1 on: 15 Sep 2007, 12:07:41 am
Oh and one other point....every other club in NL1 &2 is totally mistified at whats going on at Haven...both in terms of why we have gotten rid of a coach who has taken us to a NRC final and 4 th place in the league...NOW That may be ok but ONLY IF THE BOD HAVE "BIGGER" ambitions .  Appointing "more of the same " would make them look foolish.

And what about the timing of tellingthe coach ..three days before the play off game..what pilloocks....an under 13 manger would have better timing. 

Jezzz .... i and many others can not wait to see what the have "PLANNED"  ... (joke.)


Monte2carlo

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Reply #2 on: 15 Sep 2007, 01:23:36 am
Oh and one other point....every other club in NL1 &2 is totally mistified at whats going on at Haven...both in terms of why we have gotten rid of a coach who has taken us to a NRC final and 4 th place in the league...NOW That may be ok but ONLY IF THE BOD HAVE "BIGGER" ambitions .  Appointing "more of the same " would make them look foolish.

And what about the timing of tellingthe coach ..three days before the play off game..what pilloocks....an under 13 manger would have better timing. 

Jezzz .... i and many others can not wait to see what the have "PLANNED"  ... (joke.)

Got to agree with you

M


Offline puppetmaster

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Reply #3 on: 15 Sep 2007, 02:40:11 am
Oh and one other point....every other club in NL1 &2 is totally mistified at whats going on at Haven...both in terms of why we have gotten rid of a coach who has taken us to a NRC final and 4 th place in the league...NOW That may be ok but ONLY IF THE BOD HAVE "BIGGER" ambitions .  Appointing "more of the same " would make them look foolish.

And what about the timing of tellingthe coach ..three days before the play off game..what pilloocks....an under 13 manger would have better timing. 

Jezzz .... i and many others can not wait to see what the have "PLANNED"  ... (joke.)
i'm trying to work it out too!!!
after all this season and last we have, as you say finished FOURTH, having in the previous 2 seasons finished SECOND< on points difference> and FIRST!!
as well as reached 2 Grand Finals!!

what a HUGE improvement it must seem to some people to then finish FOURTH and fail to reach the Grand Final!!

i just can't see why we have let Mr Ditherham go!!!! ;)

the only preoblem we have for next season, is whoever comes in, wont have had the chance to get the players he wants< unless a deal has already been done for a new coach and he has told them who he would like!> so next season will have to be a patient one for us fans whilst the club is essentially in transition,
unfortunately, for most people time isnt something a new coach will be allowed to have.

if the new guy brings in improvements to the playing side, ie new fresh tactics< cant be any worse than we've had or not for the last 2 seasons!> then he will be able to buy himself some time!

oh and of course, so long as he doesnt shout at the poor wee players in case they spit the dummy with him too!!
the reverand, big mac

Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good


Offline Keith

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Reply #4 on: 15 Sep 2007, 08:54:56 am
Listening to the Des Byrne interview on Radio Cumbria, I think it was pretty obvious that there is a split at boardroom level, whether they want to publicly admit to it or not, but they are fooling no-one by not admitting it.

Haven have been very unfortunate over the past few years in that, apart from one season, they were never going to get into SL because of the ground and the problems there were nothing the board of directors had any control over.   The ground was always going to be the big problem and too many expectations were raised by the board on this subject.    I have no doubt that had all this been at some other time in the club's history, i.e. a time when the Rec was passable for SL standards then they would have achieved that ambition.

The problem now is that there is no time left to either get a team together capable of winning the Grand Final or get the ground up to SL standard before the final year of promotion which is this time next year but clubs have to have everything in place by next June.   

As for the coach situation, I think DR came at a transition point as he inherited so many players who were ageing and getting to the ends of their careers and he had to introduce younger players and also bring in others from away.    I also suspect that he hasn't had the finance available for team building whilst the board concentrated on other matters like buying two grandstands, etc, so it does seem hard to have judged him during what for many has been a decent year for the team.     
Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


justonelilpoint

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Reply #5 on: 15 Sep 2007, 09:41:06 am
Keith how can you say he's not had the finance available ?
How much are those 6 outsiders being paid collectively ?
Not to mention we've had players like Ryan McDonald,Mark Leafa,Oliver Wilkes ,2-3 loan players
and was him who recruited Scott Teare,Ricky Wright etc
I think he's had every support from the BOD !

as for the kids, yes few have played handfull of games, but we couldnt even play them in games like Blackpool where we  prefered to play Carl Sice at fullback .Our next club fullback Craig Benson when he has played has been playing on the wing!
 We now at a  situation where there isnt one U21 whose really ready to step up now for next season and make himself a regular and when we knew so many were finishing ,shouldnt that have been one of the clubs priorities for this year ?
The standard of our rugby has dropped , yes we finished 4th again , And yes we got to a final, But having beat Bramley ,Barrow and Halifax all at home on the way...was that such a huge achievement for the coach ?
Some games we struggled for large parts before ,scoring a few late tries and making scoreline look like we won easyily.
Having read the message boards at other clubs over this season and all their fans have said we have gone backwards and we not the threat we were.
AND !! Look at the daft defeats to Sheffield and York ,Do we want more of that in future ? Way we going wont be long before Barrow and Town pass us by.
Could the club afford to slide further back next year ? Could the club afford to lose more people on the gate ?
I think the timing of telling him could have been better, But whats done is done now.



Offline Maca

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Reply #6 on: 15 Sep 2007, 09:49:20 am
Well said marra, about telling him tho DR asked the bod if he was heer next season so they told him it gives him more time and options for another job.


Offline Keith

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Reply #7 on: 15 Sep 2007, 10:01:23 am
Keith how can you say he's not had the finance available ?
How much are those 6 outsiders being paid collectively ?
Not to mention we've had players like Ryan McDonald,Mark Leafa,Oliver Wilkes ,2-3 loan players
and was him who recruited Scott Teare,Ricky Wright etc
I think he's had every support from the BOD !

as for the kids, yes few have played handfull of games, but we couldnt even play them in games like Blackpool where we  prefered to play Carl Sice at fullback .Our next club fullback Craig Benson when he has played has been playing on the wing!
 We now at a  situation where there isnt one U21 whose really ready to step up now for next season and make himself a regular and when we knew so many were finishing ,shouldnt that have been one of the clubs priorities for this year ?
The standard of our rugby has dropped , yes we finished 4th again , And yes we got to a final, But having beat Bramley ,Barrow and Halifax all at home on the way...was that such a huge achievement for the coach ?
Some games we struggled for large parts before ,scoring a few late tries and making scoreline look like we won easyily.
Having read the message boards at other clubs over this season and all their fans have said we have gone backwards and we not the threat we were.
AND !! Look at the daft defeats to Sheffield and York ,Do we want more of that in future ? Way we going wont be long before Barrow and Town pass us by.
Could the club afford to slide further back next year ? Could the club afford to lose more people on the gate ?
I think the timing of telling him could have been better, But whats done is done now.




If the finance has been so readily available then yes, you would have to ask why he was signing Ricky Wright and Baldwin and wanting to sign Tunstall and Lavulavu from Town, when he could have been after much better players, but we will never know what the truth of that one is.

Has the standard of the rugby dropped because you have had to change to fit in with the ageing players capabilities!!!   As for daft defeats well every team has them look at Saints getting beat 21 - 0 at Catalans.     Are the Under 21's not the responsibility of Gary Hewer, if so, are you questioning his ability to bring these players along???

Next year, as I have said, is the end of P & R so what progress is there to make???     Progress in future is finishing one, two or three places higher than you are now!!!!
Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


justonelilpoint

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Reply #8 on: 15 Sep 2007, 10:18:33 am
My point is the money probably wasnt available and thats why he wnet after Ricky Wright......What im getting at is the coach was backed, having 6 players from outside  obviously took up large part of the clubs  budget BUT it was DR who wanted them.

some of these outsiders have cost a  lot to bring in some have delievered and some havent, there is only so much money in the pot to make available to the coach and in my opinion  lot of it was used up offering them new contracts.
Do you want directors to break bank and let him have whoever he wants and we have another 3-4 travellers ?

as for U21's they coming on ok at their own level finished  5th in league.But you cant expect these lads to suddenly be first teamers and i dont see what that has to do with Gary hewer coaching them ?
 They need blooded gradually ,Its a huge step from U21 to National League 1
Need Brought in when opportunities allow.
Some games this season ,when we could have given them game time-they havent been given that opportunity and they getting frustrated.
We played Donny on Maritime Friday , a club in turmoil and after Widnes had just put 90 on them and we fielded one of our strongest line ups.
Wouldnt it have been nice to give say Fats or Trindall that game off and played Farrar or Jones ?
wouldnt it have been nice to give Bainbridge another game under his belt, or give Benson go at fullback ?
Even have couple of them on bench and still played our best 13?
If we'd tried to bring a few of them quicker on we may have been in position now to say hey we've 4-5 U21 lads ready to step up and be regulars. I just cant see that at moment, unless we going to play them in trains games next season.But a new coach will probably have other ideas of building a  new team.


Offline toddy

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Reply #9 on: 15 Sep 2007, 10:39:51 am
Listening to the Des Byrne interview on Radio Cumbria, I think it was pretty obvious that there is a split at boardroom level, whether they want to publicly admit to it or not, but they are fooling no-one by not admitting it.

Haven have been very unfortunate over the past few years in that, apart from one season, they were never going to get into SL because of the ground and the problems there were nothing the board of directors had any control over.   The ground was always going to be the big problem and too many expectations were raised by the board on this subject.    I have no doubt that had all this been at some other time in the club's history, i.e. a time when the Rec was passable for SL standards then they would have achieved that ambition.

The problem now is that there is no time left to either get a team together capable of winning the Grand Final or get the ground up to SL standard before the final year of promotion which is this time next year but clubs have to have everything in place by next June.   

As for the coach situation, I think DR came at a transition point as he inherited so many players who were ageing and getting to the ends of their careers and he had to introduce younger players and also bring in others from away.    I also suspect that he hasn't had the finance available for team building whilst the board concentrated on other matters like buying two grandstands, etc, so it does seem hard to have judged him during what for many has been a decent year for the team.     

Keith, you are a true supporter of rugby league. You are very much like a player in your view of things and it is something to be respected for what it is. an honest point of view! If both Town and Haven could all think like you, they would be a force to be reckoned  with .
 In my opinion you are a pure supporter of your team but also more importantly,the game.
Thank you, you are the type of person i respect and the type of supporter that keeps the game going.


Offline Keith

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Reply #10 on: 15 Sep 2007, 12:49:46 pm
Thanks toddy for those kind remarks I always try to be honest in any assessments I make.   I am not one of these fans that hate the other club, indeed the sedond result I look for after Town's is Haven's.     I'm proud to be a West Cumbrian and support all our teams against the big wide world of sport.

justonelilpoint - the reason I said about Gary Hewer is from an article in the League Weekly newspaper this week where it say" Haven academy coach Gary Hewer has emerged as a strong candidate for the vacant Workington Town coaching job.    However, the 38 year old says he will not consider the Derwent Park post until the end of Haven's season"    It then goes on to say he is also the No 2 in the England under 15 coaching set-up.     So if that is not the situation at Haven then I apologise but was going from that article.  As for travellers, well unfortunately, for both our clubs if we want a winning team on the field we have to bring in travelling players to supplement the local lads.     Would Haven have got to the Grand Finals under McCormack, without Mick Nanyn, the points scoring machine?     Would Town have enjoyed their trips to Old Trafford without Byrne, McKenzie, Cocker, etc,?    At the end of the day it all depends on the quality of the player that they bring in and how committed they are to the club's ambitions.
Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


justonelilpoint

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Reply #11 on: 15 Sep 2007, 01:09:24 pm
If Daniel Anderson was coaching u21's what bearing has that on them being ready for first team ?
They need experience of first team games and they only get that by being played.

as for travelling players, your still missing my point, im not against us having 13 travelling lads if need be.
You said "I also suspect that he hasn't had the finance available for team building "

My point is  funds have been made available for DR over last two seasons..Was him who chose majority of those outside players or  re-newed their contracts.
Smith,Fletcher,Jackson,Baldwin,Maden,Duffy,Leafa,Wilkes,McDonald,Dale,Bannister , How can anyone say board havent backed him ?  Only so much money available at any club....it aint a  bottomless pit.




Offline JamEater

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Reply #12 on: 15 Sep 2007, 01:19:43 pm
Listening to the Des Byrne interview on Radio Cumbria, I think it was pretty obvious that there is a split at boardroom level, whether they want to publicly admit to it or not, but they are fooling no-one by not admitting it.

Haven have been very unfortunate over the past few years in that, apart from one season, they were never going to get into SL because of the ground and the problems there were nothing the board of directors had any control over.   The ground was always going to be the big problem and too many expectations were raised by the board on this subject.    I have no doubt that had all this been at some other time in the club's history, i.e. a time when the Rec was passable for SL standards then they would have achieved that ambition.

The problem now is that there is no time left to either get a team together capable of winning the Grand Final or get the ground up to SL standard before the final year of promotion which is this time next year but clubs have to have everything in place by next June.   

As for the coach situation, I think DR came at a transition point as he inherited so many players who were ageing and getting to the ends of their careers and he had to introduce younger players and also bring in others from away.    I also suspect that he hasn't had the finance available for team building whilst the board concentrated on other matters like buying two grandstands, etc, so it does seem hard to have judged him during what for many has been a decent year for the team.     

Keith, you are a true supporter of rugby league. You are very much like a player in your view of things and it is something to be respected for what it is. an honest point of view! If both Town and Haven could all think like you, they would be a force to be reckoned  with .
 In my opinion you are a pure supporter of your team but also more importantly,the game.
Thank you, you are the type of person i respect and the type of supporter that keeps the game going.


I have to second this, I think Keith is a true supporter of Rugby League, Not just a Town supporter. He loves the game. Long may you post on this message board marra. ;)


Offline Keith

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Reply #13 on: 15 Sep 2007, 01:29:17 pm
If Daniel Anderson was coaching u21's what bearing has that on them being ready for first team ?
They need experience of first team games and they only get that by being played.
Quote

The point I am making is that the U 21 coach is responsible for bringing them up to the first team standard.   Who is the judge of that the fans or the coaches?

as for travelling players, your still missing my point, im not against us having 13 travelling lads if need be.
You said "I also suspect that he hasn't had the finance available for team building "

Quote
  My point is  funds have been made available for DR over last two seasons..Was him who chose majority of those outside players or  re-newed their contracts.
Smith,Fletcher,Jackson,Baldwin,Maden,Duffy,Leafa,Wilkes,McDonald,Dale,Bannister , How can anyone say board havent backed him ?  Only so much money available at any club....it aint a  bottomless pit. 
Quote

I agree, and much of that funding was always available to the other coaches, but different quality players cost differing amounts of money!!!      Some of the players you have mentioned in your list were only short term Wilkes, Dale, Bannister and did Ryan McDonald ever get to training never mind playing???   Of the others I would suggest that Fletcher, Duffy, Maden, R Jackson & Smith have been the mainstay of the team this year.     Which begs the question again of why is/was DR looking to bring in lesser quality players if the finance was available?



Keith - Haven Legend previously a former Haven Immortal!!!


justonelilpoint

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Reply #14 on: 15 Sep 2007, 03:11:51 pm
Leafa ,wilkes,McDonald etc were all signed and were haven players, The board delivered so aint their  fault they went elsewhere afterwards.

Money probably wasnt available to him, But he had already spent  what was available!!
collectively those 6 will have been on a  pretty packet ,so the question is have the board backed him and provided the cash to enable players to come here....the answer has to be yes!
Were the board supposed to just keep agreeing to requests ? we not Chelsea and just keep buying and buying.

Some of his signings havent performed like Aaron Smith and perhaps his wages could have been used better elsewhere when we had 3 hookers already on books.As for Simon Baldwin ???::)

This board has backed the last 3 coaches with more players than any other board i know and its one of biggest reasons why we have been sucessfull.To suggest DR was not given the finacial support to team build is clearly wrong.